‘The EU has gone mad – it must be stopped,’ says Sergey Karaganov

Sergey Karaganov delivered a scathing assessment of Western Europe in an interview with Alexander Kareevsky on Russia 24, arguing that it has long been a source of global conflict and must now be “stopped”

©  Sputnik/Kirill Zykov

Alexander Kareevsky: Western Europe is becoming increasingly drawn into the war in Ukraine. Statements are already being made by our officials. Meanwhile, the news reports regarding EU’s preparations for war are raising more and more questions. How should we respond to this? To give an example, I’ll mention the news that the Germans have already produced 5,000 drones based on Ukrainian designs. It’s laughable to hear that, what Ukrainian designs? It is clear that the German defense industry is directly working on drones that are striking our territory. And do you remember the ‘Taurus’ affair? The Germans have made a clever move: they do not formally supply such weapons, and now they have apparently decided to harass us with drones, of which they are producing more and more. In time, defending against drones will become increasingly difficult. Of course, sooner or later a countermeasure will be found, but for now we can see that drones are far more dangerous than missiles, for instance. Although, of course, it depends on how they’re used. Nevertheless, the issue remains very complex, and the brazenness with which EU leaders behave, clearly feeling completely immune from punishment, suggests that a response is needed.

We have already responded. Sergey Shoigu, in particular, stated that there are legitimate targets on EU territory, and that the Ministry of Defense has published a list of the locations where these drones are being manufactured. And indeed, in response, European Commission spokesperson Anitta Hipper has already stated, and I quote: “The European Commission has no evidence of the Russian Federation’s claims.” In other words, in their view, we are apparently fabricating attacks on our cities, on our infrastructure, including civilian infrastructure, including strategic civilian infrastructure, and so on. And the countries that reported this, Finland and the Baltic states, are pretending they know nothing. Before that, let me remind you once more: they themselves said that “we saw something flying past here. We didn’t... It wasn’t heading our way, it was flying off somewhere else.” In other words, they’re playing dumb. And what are we to do about this? How can we make these Western Europeans see reason? Is there such a way, and at what level of confrontation are we actually at right now?

There’s still a great deal of news coming out of the Persian Gulf. It seems as though there is, and I emphasize this word, a certain easing of tensions, as they used to say in Soviet times. Moreover, there are a great many recent statements being made by Trump himself. It seems the Iranian side is also making a statement about opening the Strait of Hormuz. Incidentally, share prices are rising on this news and so on. But, in short, this is the situation at the moment; this is the picture that is currently emerging. Let’s return to Europe and, of course, discuss Iran.

Sergey Karaganov: First and foremost, we need to do something about ourselves. We must understand that, once again, Western Europe has unleashed a war against Russia. That is the plain truth. The initiator of this war was the United States of America, which dragged the EU into it. And now the Americans, having realized that they will not succeed in bringing us down, and moreover having realized that an escalation to the nuclear level is likely and possible, even on US territory, have begun to back off, although they are still warming their hands by the fire of the European war in full swing.

As for the Western Europeans, the EU elites, they are utterly bankrupt. They have no grounds whatsoever to remain in power: no moral, political or economic grounds, they have failed on every front. They are whipping up military hysteria to divert attention from their own problems, but are also preparing for war. And this must be taken seriously. Let me remind you that, over the last five hundred years, Europe has generally been the source of all humanity’s major misfortunes, including most wars, including the two world wars. Therefore, we must not let our guard down.

It is important to realize that a world war has begun. It is being waged in Europe, largely by Western Europeans, whilst the United States of America, together with Israel, has begun to destabilize southern Eurasia.

So, we need to be absolutely clear that this is the situation we find ourselves in. What should the EU do? America is a separate matter, it simply needs to be firmly restrained and steered away from this situation. The EU must finally realize that it will be destroyed if the aggression continues. And the sooner it realizes this, the fewer of our people will die.

Therefore, it seems to me that the time will come when President [Vladimir Putin] must appoint a commander-in-chief in the theater of operations with the authority to use any type of weapon, and even the duty to do so, and incorporate into military doctrine a provision stating that, should war be waged against us, and it has been waged by an enemy that surpasses us in demographic and economic terms, we would have to use nuclear weapons. Naturally, not immediately. First, we can strike the targets indicated by our Ministry of Defense, or others. Most likely, these will be symbolic targets or communication hubs, which will be hit with conventional munitions. If they do not stop, we will have to move to a higher level.

These Western Europeans must be stopped; they have gone mad yet again. Moreover, if we do not stop them now, the situation will be worse in a few years’ time, because the level of anti-Russian propaganda is already exceeding that of Hitler’s era. And, consequently, the population is succumbing to it.

There’s a very simple way to stop this: place a strong emphasis on nuclear deterrence and make it clear that the EU must be stopped. Moreover, as has already been mentioned, some of them are preparing to expand their nuclear capabilities and even to develop new nuclear forces. Monkeys must not be allowed to possess nuclear weapons.

That’s why we must put a firm stop to the EU now. I would prefer this to be done without the use of nuclear weapons, and certainly without a massive strike; after all, Europe is part of our soul, our culture. But we must understand that Western Europe is the embodiment of all the major evils afflicting humanity and Russia. And it must be stopped. It has gone mad.

Alexander Kareevsky: Sergey Alexandrovich, you know, if we get down to specifics – because you’ve been talking about this for a long time, and rightly so, and the events unfolding confirm what you’ve been saying, namely that the EU will become even more brazen. It is clear that there are many proposals on how to ensure that they stop behaving the way they are behaving. Dmitry Medvedev has already stated that there are legitimate targets in Western Europe and so on. The list published by our Ministry of Defense. Let’s be honest: this is our last attempt to bring them to their senses, so to speak, to scare them, so that they make a decision. But even now, when I speak to my colleagues, everyone says: ‘What is this, another red line? If they wanted to, they would have struck long ago’. What do you say to that?

Sergey Karaganov: We have hoped for reconciliation for far too long; there was, and perhaps still is, a very strong pro-European sentiment in our society and among our elite, although I must emphasize that, in the current circumstances, pro-European sentiment and Western-leaning attitudes are a sign of foolishness and moral duplicity. So, we now need to act decisively, realizing that the EU must be stopped. If it is not stopped, there will be a major war, which will lead to the destruction of Europe anyway, but we do not need to lose our best people and risk our cities for the sake of the EU. It must be stopped. It has broken free from its chains once again, as has happened many times in history.

Let me repeat: we need to appoint a commander-in-chief in the theater of operations with the authority and responsibility to use nuclear weapons should Europe refuse to retreat or even surrender. We will soon be in a position to issue them an ultimatum if they continue to behave in this manner. This is a serious matter. It may be possible to reach an agreement with the Americans at some point; there are still sensible people there. In Western Europe, there are no such people left. Naturally, they exist on a normal, human level, but there are fewer and fewer of them, and they are being pushed aside. The EU’s elites are mad; they have completely degenerated intellectually. And on top of that, they are not afraid of us. We need them to truly fear us; we need to instill terror in them.

I think we will need to take tougher action: cut cables, and begin testing nuclear weapons, amongst other things. If that doesn’t help, we’ll have to strike targets in Western Europe, with the warning that if they continue, the next waves of strikes will be nuclear. Forget the nonsense that a nuclear war cannot be won, it can be won.

But God forbid it should happen, because that would be a grave sin. Yet if we fail to stop a Europe that has gone wild, it will be a mortal sin, unforgivable both to our people and to all of humanity. The beast must, if not be finished off, then at least be locked firmly in a cage.

Alexander Kareevsky: Mr. Karaganov, you always speak your mind frankly, especially on live television. There is a great deal of talk going on among us ordinary people at the moment. We can see that at the top, part of the elite is precisely that pro-European, pro-Western crowd and so on, the Anglophiles and all the rest who have always been in Russia: we’ve always had Westernizers, Slavophiles and so on. And very many of this upper echelon of our elite want to keep things as they were before, to go back to Courchevel and so on. Perhaps we need to sort things out internally ourselves. And who is our enemy? It’s clear that the enemy is the Kiev regime; the lads are fighting them, it’s all clear. But we ourselves say that there is someone behind it. And who is that? We understand clearly: if it is the EU, then why are we selling gas, oil and everything else there? If it is not the enemy, and it is theoretically possible to come to an agreement with it, then that is a different policy. Perhaps we need to sort ourselves out: who are we and what do we want in the end? As a rule, the people support the president’s actions. But, in my opinion, not everyone in the elite does.

Sergey Karaganov: I repeat: under the current circumstances, pro-European sentiment is a sign of mental weakness, moral corruption and treason. It is ‘Vlasovism’. [this means treasonous – editor] We must treat people who are trying to negotiate with Europe once again in precisely this way. They must be driven out, by gentle means where possible, from our minds and from our ranks. And if gentle means fail, then harsh measures will have to be applied. I repeat: we are once again facing the threat of a major war. We must prevent it. The war has already begun. If we do not stop it now, and, unfortunately, we have been dithering for four years, things will only get worse. There will be more weapons, there may be new nuclear weapons, and there will be new swarms of drones. There will be an even more brutalized elite and an even more indoctrinated population. We forget that the propaganda in Western Europe today, particularly in North-Western Europe, regarding Russia is as bad as, or even worse than, Hitler’s propaganda during the Great Patriotic War, that is, the Second World War. We must take this as seriously as possible. The EU must be stopped. If we do not stop it, we will have to destroy it. We would prefer not to do this, because, after all, Europe is part of our culture.

Although, of course, we must finally turn to what is most dear to us and understand who we are. And we are a great Eurasian nation-civilization, with our spiritual roots in the south, in Byzantium, Palestine, the Muslim world and the Buddhist world, whilst our political system came from the East. Peter the Great’s influence, partly technological and partly cultural, was beneficial to us. But we have lingered on our European journey for at least 120-130 years. If we had turned away from Europe back then, as Alexander III intended, I think we would not have had such a tragic, terrible 20th century. We must not allow this to happen again. We must put an end to Europe in our hearts, otherwise we will have to put an end to it physically. And that is something we would very much like to avoid.

Alexander Kareevsky: Mr Karaganov, that’s why I was smiling when you spoke: you seem a little kinder towards Europe today than usual. I wonder what’s behind that?

Sergey Karaganov: I’m kinder?

Alexander Kareevsky: Today, yes. You said: ‘Part of our soul lies there’. You didn’t used to say that.

Sergey Karaganov: I said it because I’ve been deeply engaged with this issue. We do, after all, have a presence there. If it weren’t for the European influence, we wouldn’t have Karamzin, we wouldn’t have Pushkin, we wouldn’t have Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Tolstoy, or even Dostoevsky, who as you know, was rather skeptical about Europe. Fair enough. So, Europe is the source of all evils, especially for Russia, both moral and military. Five hundred years of monstrous history, and even more, dating back to the time of Alexander Nevsky. We must put an end to our European history, and those who are eager to return to Europe, to their mansions or their capital, must be removed from our elite or expelled. However, some of them have already fled thanks to the military operation in Ukraine. But it is not worth continuing it indefinitely and wasting our best men on trying to persuade Western Europe to see reason. We must start striking back.

Alexander Kareevsky: Well,we keep trying to persuade Europe, appealing to whatever sense of reason they might have, and so on, but so far with very little success.

Sergey Karaganov: There’s no sense of reason there. They’re getting bolder right before our eyes, that’s all. This is wrong. We’re dealing with a mindless pack of hyenas. They need to be either beaten over the head with a stick or simply killed. That’s the only way.

Alexander Kareevsky: People will object to you as follows. The Western Europeans keep saying: ‘It was you who started the war in Ukraine, and once you’ve ended it, we’ll be friends again, and everything will be wonderful; it’s not our fault. You were the first to start it’. What do you say to that?

Sergey Karaganov: The United States, by the way, we mustn’t forget about them either, and the EU began their aggression against Russia back when we wanted to become part of Europe and part of the West. That was in the mid-1990s, when they decided to expand NATO. I wrote and spoke about it – you probably still remember – that this would inevitably lead, sooner or later, to war. And they went ahead with it deliberately, consciously provoking us. We put up with it for far too long. That was our mistake. We cannot put up with it any longer. We must understand that, I repeat once again, if we have to put an end to North-Western Europe, it is a terrible choice, but it is a choice necessary for the whole of humanity. This ulcer must either be treated with medicine in some way, or simply cut out.

Alexander Kareevsky: You’re talking about Western Europe. But look at how the people of Hungary have been brainwashed. They want to live like they do in Western Europe, you see? Even though migrants are raping their own people in the underpasses, they say: ‘Bear with it, it might just blow over’, as they said in our film. They’ve reformatted their minds very quickly. And it seems to me that’s how it is everywhere in Europe. And they’re trying to push us in that direction too. Do you want it to be like that over there? Life there is brilliant.

Sergey Karaganov: Like what? It’s our misfortune that we think life there is brilliant. Life there is getting worse and worse. Of course, the Western Europeans are very angry with us, because we once, in the ‘50s, ‘60s and beyond, deprived them of their military superiority, and it was on this foundation that their ability to impose their culture, their political interests, colonialism, racism and, most importantly, to plunder the whole world was built. We undermined that foundation. That is why the Western European elites, perhaps not the entire population realizes this, hate us with a passion. And they are brainwashing their own people. Remember how our predecessors used to say: ‘Germany is a cultured country’. How could they? Well, now the Europeans are being turned into German fascists. That is why we need to stop them before they, having gone wild, plunge into a major, truly major war. They are waging war against us.

Alexander Kareevsky: We need to acknowledge this, excuse me, and declare it.

Sergey Karaganov: Yes. And declare a European theater of war.

We are not at war in Ukraine against the unfortunate, deceived Ukrainian people, even though there are a staggering number of people there who have been deceived and brainwashed. We are at war there against the collective West, and above all against Europe. We must bring this home to ourselves, understand it, acknowledge it, and stop pinning our hopes on ridiculous and foolish notions.

We don’t need a Europe like that. All the more so because the Europe we once loved is long gone. That was the Europe of the Renaissance, the Europe of great poets and great thinkers. Over the last few decades, it has degenerated. I assure you. I too was once a Europhile and even one of the founders of the Institute of Europe. When I got involved with it, I realized things were in a bad way.

Alexander Kareevsky: You know, I would advise our Europhiles in high offices to read Thomas Mann, his novel ‘The Magic Mountain’. It is a very long novel, it is true, and it contains several reflections by a Jesuit and a Freemason. Thomas Mann was an anti-fascist; he was not a fervent Russophobe. But through one of the main characters, he shows how they see us. That was a novel from 1924, dear friends. They have never regarded us as their equals, and they still do not.

Sergey Karaganov: Listen, that is our problem. How can we regard these (though there are decent people among them) morally corrupt individuals and bastards as our equals? It is ridiculous when we say that they treat us badly. Their elites are turning themselves into subhumans. Therefore, we must treat them accordingly. And to say that we are equals is humiliating for us. We are a great country, a great culture – incidentally, a culture that has continued and developed the finest traditions of European humanism. Look, we are at war in Ukraine, but we have no fierce anti-Ukrainian propaganda, even though, in principle, there ought to be some during a war. So, we’ve kept the best of Europe for ourselves. There’s nothing left of it there. That’s why we need to cut ourselves off from it, and if that doesn’t work, then destroy it.

Alexander Kareevsky: I realise that we have drifted into rather philosophical and political discussions, but they are absolutely vital for us to understand who our enemy is at the moment. Because, indeed, pro-European sentiment is strong; we do tend to remember the good times. We know that Europe has done a great deal of good for the world, but it has this Achilles’ heel. It has always been very racist.

Sergey Karaganov: We have forgotten that Europe is the embodiment of all humanity’s greatest evils: colonialism, racism, the most vile ideologies, and mass genocides across the globe. Not only the genocide of Jews and Russians, Soviets, but in Africa, and in India, and all over the world, peoples and entire continents were destroyed. So, we must understand that this is a plague from which we must isolate ourselves as far as possible. And if we cannot isolate ourselves, it must be destroyed.

Alexander Kareevsky: Is there still a chance after all? From your answer, I gathered that there isn’t. But I would still like to call once more for some sort of resolution. Hope dies last. And yet there are certain twists and turns, I don’t know, in the Persian Gulf with America, or something else,  so might this major war in Europe be pushed back significantly after all? In my view, countries aren’t ready to fight right now: neither they nor we. But this lack of readiness doesn’t determine or rule out this war. Is there still hope that all this will be postponed for the time being? Because at the moment, the feeling is that war will be here tomorrow.

Sergey Karaganov: And things will get worse. We need to act now; we should have acted yesterday and the day before. I’ve spoken about this. We even discussed it with you later. We’ve waited too long, hoped for too long, and been swayed by our Europhiles for too long. I’ve already said who they are now. So, I repeat: part of Europe, when it falls apart, I hope it does not perish under our nuclear strikes, although a significant part of it deserves it, part of this Europe, I think, will return to a normal life and to human values. This is southern Europe: Spain, Italy, Greece. This is a significant part of Central Europe. And we must isolate ourselves from the rest as from the plague, from contagion. Or destroy it. God forbid, because innocent people will perish after all. That is why I would very much like us to take decisive action to prevent a truly major nuclear war in Europe.

Although a limited nuclear war is possible, and we may have to resort to it. And we will emerge victorious, though, of course, the bitterness will remain, because the use of weapons of mass destruction, when children perish, is a great sin. But I repeat: if we do not stop the West, which has now become savage, the US is part of this West, but they are acting more cautiously at the moment, although they are currently setting Israel against the Arabs and setting the whole of southern Eurasia ablaze as they withdraw from Eurasia, if we do not stop them, the world will perish in a major thermonuclear war. We must not allow this to happen. Firstly, we must not allow ourselves to be worn down in this war against these nobodies. We cannot afford to lose any more of our boys. And secondly, we must avoid a major thermonuclear war, which will inevitably break out if this global conflict that is now flaring up continues to rage. The first thing we need to do is to put the EU out.

Alexander Kareevsky: I really would not want the situation to develop in this way. On the other hand, from what you’ve said – we’ve been talking for so long – it seems there is no way out.

Sergey Karaganov: And there shouldn’t be a way out. We must take a firm stand against the EU; if necessary, we must punish it. I repeat: we will gain nothing good from Europe anymore. We did gain something from it at one time. Although I would remind you that we did not receive Christianity from Europe, nor did we receive Islam from Europe, and there is a great deal else that we did not receive from Europe.

By Alexander Kareevsky, Vesti on Russia 24